What's your guys opinion on Ayaka Sasaki's singing voice?
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^ Some idols may become successful just by being cute. However, it seems to me that pretty much everyone here thinks that Momoclo is not one of those groups - they have a lot more to offer besides that, and were really one of the trailblazers in moving beyond that attitude. I also mentioned before that it's not the "making people happy" part that makes me overlook weaker singing, it's the fact that the music is well made regardless of that. Many great bands don't have the best singers, but their songs are still good because of the other factors that go into them.
Also, I don't think that people have a negative opinion of Western pop groups just because they are focused more on making people happy than on talent. In fact, some Western pop groups are probably reasonably talented. Imo, people ridicule them more because they think their music is bad in an overall sense than because of a lack of talent.
At any rate, I'll second what nemurenatta says - it's up to you why you like anything, and you will know what your reasons are for it. It isn't really necessary to justify those reasons to anyone else. -
cinnamonpie said:
^ Some idols may become successful just by being cute. However, it seems to me that pretty much everyone here thinks that Momoclo is not one of those groups - they have a lot more to offer besides that, and were really one of the trailblazers in moving beyond that attitude. I also mentioned before that it's not the "making people happy" part that makes me overlook weaker singing, it's the fact that the music is well made regardless of that. Many great bands don't have the best singers, but their songs are still good because of the other factors that go into them.
Also, I don't think that people have a negative opinion of Western pop groups just because they are focused more on making people happy than on talent. In fact, some Western pop groups are probably reasonably talented. Imo, people ridicule them more because they think their music is bad in an overall sense than because of a lack of talent.
At any rate, I'll second what nemurenatta says - it's up to you why you like anything, and you will know what your reasons are for it. It isn't really necessary to justify those reasons to anyone else.
Indeed. I'd just like to add one thing: there's western pop music, and then there's western pop music. Technically, acts like Amy Winehouse and Sia are western pop music. But, when we say "western pop music", we don't refer to them. We refer to the likes of Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus (and Beyonce, and Katy Perry, etc., etc.), because they are more successful.
Similarly, in Asian pop music, the most successful acts are the likes of Arashi, Momusu, AKB48 or Girls' Generation. The innovators (be it Sheena Ringo, MCZ, or even Babymetal and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu) are not the top of the heap. So it's not about Asian pop being superior to western pop...it's about there being originality in both. And MCZ is one of several examples of original pop music in Asia. It has nothing to do with any kind of racial bias...they just ARE more original than the big western (and Asian) pop acts.
P.S. sorry, I didn't mean to insult Babymetal fans by calling their idols pop, but you should listen to Gimme Chocolate... it's pop:)...and it's their best song by a mile. -
BABYMETAL is the reason I even started listening to Japanese music in the first place!! And I never would have thought there will be any music act to have ever come even close to my obsession with BM!!! But then 2 months ago, to reference a well known song in English Translation: 5 beautiful, colorful, awesome ladies sang
"We’re aiming right at your pink-coloured heart
Powered by the nice music, we anounce our next great crime
Swiftly kick-boxing our way through
We’ll get our hands on your heart" -
stansfield123 said:
Similarly, in Asian pop music, the most successful acts are the likes of Arashi, Momusu, AKB48 or Girls' Generation. The innovators (be it Sheena Ringo, MCZ, or even Babymetal and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu) are not the top of the heap.
Really?? Momoclo is "not the top of the heap"? Despite the fact that they were the fastest group to play at the National Stadium (not to mention, being the first female group to do it???
With all the other stuff they have accomplished, how are they not at least "one" of the tops of the heap?? -
^^ Momoclo is definitely not top of the heap. Even though they were the fastest group to the national stadium, theres Momosu the longest running group with the ten consecutive top 10 singles, AKB ( we know where this one goes), Nogizaka46 (AKB 2.0), and Perfume. Lots of scary competitors out there.
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Because they're just not. It doesn't matter where they got to perform. They've been voted the most popular idol group in some polls before, but that doesn't justify anything.
A little history lesson since you clearly don't know much about the idol industry. The top of the heap will always and forever be AKB48 when it comes to idols. Whenever someone mentions idols, they immediately think AKB, the group is literally synonymous with the word. They have influenced the modern idol industry so much that it would be impossible to ignore them. AKB48 has had more overseas shows than Momoclo, made a DBZ song before them, been around much longer, etc. They use their sexuality to sell more often than not too, which, while I don't really like this, is undoubtably a genius marketing ploy that worked wonders for them. Momoclo even took after them to ensure small success to some degree in their early days. They are just that influential. They're just... huge.
As for why Momoclo isn't at the top? Who knows? A lot of people don't like them just as a lot of people don't like the 48 groups for other reasons, but that's just it. A lot of people don't like Momoclo for one reason or another. And justified reasons too. They took a risk, a radically different direction from typical idol groups, and while that risk was worth it in the end, it jeopardised their abilty to beat AKB48 because they didn't take the safe route that's been established in the idol industry. Of course, they deserve a lot more merit than they get for that, but in the end it's all about sales. Sales sales sales. And how should we know why they don't get enough sales? We're biased after all, let's be honest.
In the end we can't answer "why they aren't at the top". Who knows? And, ahem, who cares? -
MM305 said:
Really?? Momoclo is "not the top of the heap"?
No, they're not. When it comes down to basic math, they're nowhere near the top of the heap.
They're among the best artists (only Japanese pop act that might be better is Sheena Ringo), but they're not among the best sellers. Feel free to check on that. AKB easily outsell MCZ by at least an order of magnitude. -
I think around the time of the National Stadium concert, Momoclo was possibly at the top in terms of public "goodwill". While AKB was taking in more money, Momoclo was kind of the hottest thing in the idol scene in terms of everyone talking about them and new fans becoming interested in them. They also had some very respectable sales with Saraba and 5th Dimension considering that the only included gimmicks were trading cards as far as I know. However, they seem to not be quite as much the center of interest now; on the other hand, it seems hard for any group to maintain that kind of status. Even AKB doesn't quite have that status of being the "in" thing anymore - they seem to have been slowly declining ever since they lost most of the key members.
In the big picture though, AKB is unquestionably the top of the heap. I remember someone once said something like "a trendy new group is a breath of fresh air in the idol scene, but AKB is the air itself." I thought that pretty much summed it up. They're probably the only group, except maybe Morning Musume at their peak, that have had such a massive cultural influence. I actually think that if AKB ever fades away, a lot of the idol scene will die with them, unless Nogi46 manages to prop it up again. -
MM305 said:
BABYMETAL is the reason I even started listening to Japanese music in the first place!! And I never would have thought there will be any music act to have ever come even close to my obsession with BM!!! But then 2 months ago, to reference a well known song in English Translation: 5 beautiful, colorful, awesome ladies sang
"We’re aiming right at your pink-coloured heart
Powered by the nice music, we anounce our next great crime
Swiftly kick-boxing our way through
We’ll get our hands on your heart"
You might find this interesting then. I did a short dj mix of Momoiro Clover and Baby Metal...it got banned from SoundCloud, but it exists here.
http://www.mixcrate.com/djmischief/momoiro-metal-momoiro-clover-z-x-babymetal-9215500
Disclaimer - Yes, this is shameless self-promotion. :D -
stansfield123 said:
[
They're among the best artists (only Japanese pop act that might be better is Sheena Ringo)
That's a bold statement if I've ever heard one. Of course everyone can have their own opinion but this sounded too much as fact and I can't agree with it :)) . As much as I might like Momoclo's music, and as much as I love them as entertainers, there are a ton of talented japanese acts that are better (in a more "non-biased" way) than Momoclo. I wouldn't exactly consider Shiina Ringo as just pop, since she mixes rock, jazz and all kinds of experimental stuff, and with the indie boom right now there are sooo many acts doing incredibly interesting stuff like that.
Better or worse is just a matter of taste, but saying Momoclo is the second best japanese act only after Shiina Ringo as this was fact, it's too much for me not to say something against it.
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Interesting how everyone is so quick to understate Momoclo's current achievements, because they are significant. Even if they can't sell the way AKB does, the reality is that AKB can't perform at the same venues Momoclo does. AKB can only perform at a dome a handful of times scattered throughout the year, with most of their shows being held in larger halls and in some cases live houses now, and the fact that Momoclo can still do a dome tour is significant in that regard. After all, everyone knows how AKB gets their inflated sales numbers and everyone knows that Momoclo doesn't really do a lot of gimmicks to encourage bulk buying. There was a period, as well, where Momoclo was indubitably more popular than AKB in terms of the general public just because they were sick of seeing AKB everywhere. They're almost certainly still more popular now, judging by their live capabilities, even if they never reached the "top of the heap," they're still technically on top when it comes to that, and I do think the live capacities are very indicative of overall popularity because it's something that can't really be faked. It's expensive to perform at large venues when you know you can't get a return on the investment, so the fact that the other Stardust groups are growing and Momoclo continues to perform at both large and far-off venues is very important to note when it comes to how popular they are.
The grandiose overstatements about AKB are funny, too. "AKB is the air," uh... They're not the be-all and end-all of idols. They're the national idols du jour, just as Morning Musume were back in their heyday (they don't even really need to be brought up into discussion since they only wish they could be on the same playing field as Momoclo, they're probably still behind Ebichu and Dempa, all things considered), just as SPEED was in their day, just as Matsuda Seiko... you get it. They're important for the era, but they didn't invent the concept. The torch gets passed. AKB are in their twilight now. They were big, but there will be others who take over the public consciousness as the next big thing. Just how it is.
And yeah, the question could even be "Why do you like Japanese idols but not English-speaking idols" and the answer of "I like their music and their personalities" would still be the same. There is no law that states that liking a single genre, particularly a genre that exists in different forms in different cultures, means that you like everything within that genre. Liking Momoclo does not predispose someone to liking Ariana Grande, nor should it. There's no irony to be found there. -
I always find the bashing of other groups silly to the max
AKB has taken over the reign when H!P went on their downhill slide.
And deservedly so. Their "idols you can meet every day" concept with the daily shows was great, and their marketing tactics impressive.
And the girls work just as hard as the others.
And they have been in power for quite some time now. Without them the idol craze of the last years might not have been possible.
I'm not really interested in AKB but I can acknowledge and respect their success -
I totally agree, there's no need to bash other idols. Momoclo is doing great doing what they're doing so there's no need to bash other groups.
To me the beauty of idol groups is that you can find some that "clicks" with you specific taste, that doesn't mean it's going to be the same group everyone else likes. You could love a very obscure idol group because they have exactly the kind of music/attitude/performances or whatever that is right for YOU.
I'm always open to learn about new groups and appreciate and respect what they do because even if it's not perfect for me, it's perfect for somebody.
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Lurkette said:
The grandiose overstatements about AKB are funny, too. "AKB is the air," uh... They're not the be-all and end-all of idols. They're the national idols du jour, just as Morning Musume were back in their heyday (they don't even really need to be brought up into discussion since they only wish they could be on the same playing field as Momoclo, they're probably still behind Ebichu and Dempa, all things considered), just as SPEED was in their day, just as Oomori Seiko... you get it. They're important for the era, but they didn't invent the concept. The torch gets passed. AKB are in their twilight now. They were big, but there will be others who take over the public consciousness as the next big thing. Just how it is.
Well, it's true that AKB probably aren't the top group compared against all of idol history, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say they're the central pillar of the current era. The whole "idol warring states" thing probably never would have happened if they hadn't taken off, and like you said, AKB was seen everywhere to the point where people were sick of them. I don't think anyone else in the current era has come close to the influence they've had, and right now it doesn't really look like there's anyone who could replace them in that way. Maybe some day another game changer will come along, but it seems like it will be very hard to reproduce what AKB did because the whole gimmicks idea has been kind of mined out now, and just selling tons of CDs on sheer popularity like the older idols isn't really possible now either.
Invader said:
Better or worse is just a matter of taste, but saying Momoclo is the second best japanese act only after Shiina Ringo as this was fact, it's too much for me not to say something against it.
I think Momoclo was only being compared to J-pop acts, not all Japanese acts. Of course, that mostly depends on what you consider pop - some might not count most of those indie bands.
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^ No, of course, and reading back it probably sounded like I was undermining their importance (in reaction to those overstating their importance, maybe), but they are the idols of the current era and were responsible for the start of the current idol era. However, the next big idol group does not have to make an impression solely by selling CDs. That's why I wanted to bring up Momoclo's accomplishments, because even if they don't have the same name value as AKB, they are, point of fact, more beloved by a lot people and can do things that AKB can no longer do.
We can also see instances like Hashimoto Kanna, who can do virtually nothing and become an overnight sensation and gain probably better name recognition than 95% of the 48G members, so it's definitely possible for another act to come along that generates as much interest as AKB did in their prime. I personally think that we might even see a return to a period where solo idols are of much more significance than groups, which I think would be really cool, but in any case, even if Momoclo never sees the same brand value, their accomplishments are noteworthy and shouldn't be undermined just because they aren't at an AKB-esque level of recognition, which was my initial point.
But that's straying from the topic at hand... although we don't really have a topic anymore.
Main takeaway I guess is that people like Momoclo for the same reasons they like any of their favorites artists, and liking Momoclo does not mean we have to like all Japanese idols, and liking Japanese idols does not mean we have to like English-speaking idols. Some of us do like multiple idol groups, Japanese or otherwise, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. Not really sure why that's a question that needs to be asked but mmkay. I just like to participate. -
How a question about Sasaki's voice turned into an all out war of words? Ha ha ha
Truth is, i just jumped out at
Lurkette said:
We can also see instances like Hashimoto Kanna, who can do virtually nothing and become an overnight sensation and gain probably better name recognition than 95% of the 48G members, so it's definitely possible for another act to come along that generates as much interest as AKB did in their prime.
because for a second it seemed like this was a put down on darling hashimoto-san, but after a second reading there is a point (i could argue for hours that if kanna wasnt doing nothing she would have faded away by now, but truth is, she became notorious for a RT picture where she doesnt even look like herself)
A little history: AKB became huge because they took over the momentum Morning Musume had, BUT Morning Musume got huge themselves by basically perfecting the formula Onyanko Club premiered.
Cant compare MCZ to AKB sucess since is unfair for both parties. MCZ dont have a Theater nor regional franchises. AKB has a revolving door of members so their have a different kind of loyalty from their fans
I wouldnt go as far as say that AKB is on their twilight, but i see cloudy skies for them once Takamina, Sayanee and Sasshi graduate
In the end, and sorry if this sounds too harsh, people measuring MCZ sucess over that of AKB - or comparing both groups at all - should reevaluate their motives for being MCZ fans, because it just shows they dont know much about MCZ and AKB48 at all -
Lurkette said:
^
But that's straying from the topic at hand... although we don't really have a topic anymore.
Main takeaway I guess is that people like Momoclo for the same reasons they like any of their favorites artists, and liking Momoclo does not mean we have to like all Japanese idols, and liking Japanese idols does not mean we have to like English-speaking idols. Some of us do like multiple idol groups, Japanese or otherwise, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. Not really sure why that's a question that needs to be asked but mmkay. I just like to participate.
I'm pointing out the irony of how we all became something that is heavily despised by a lot people, including some of us as well (depends who you are): a fan of an idol group!
It's like someone who heavily criticizes 1D and their fan base for "playing the love card to get success", while turning around and being fans of MCZ or any other idol groups themselves, who play a similar role!!
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MM305 said:
I'm pointing out the irony of how we all became something that is heavily despised by a lot people, including some of us as well (depends who you are): a fan of an idol group!
Not sure what people you surround yourself with but I don't know anyone who fits that description or who despises idols even remotely.
All the people I have introduced my "hobby" to thought it was cute. What you describe is no problem of mine at all.
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Probably not you or some people here, but if you find yourself dwelling or being surrounded by Western pop culture (for example), you'll noticed the heavy criticism/insults of idols/boy bands/girl groups of 1D, Fifth Harmony, JB, and others to name.
And a lot of it comes from how they are successful because of their role of making people fall in love with them (or in some cases, a little more than just love).
I'm just explains an example of someone who does say that about these kind of idols, while being fans of ther idols who play a similar role. -
MM305 said:
but if you find yourself dwelling or being surrounded by Western pop culture (for example), you'll noticed the heavy criticism/insults of idols/boy bands/girl groups of 1D, Fifth Harmony, JB, and others to name.
No I haven't noticed this to be a problem particular to boy-girl-etc groups.
There are people who hate this. And there are people who hate that. Some have reasons. Others don't.
Stop giving importance to these matters and it won't be a problem anymore.
PS: Might I say that in my youth I was a fan of Deep Purple and Led Zep. And we despised the Bay City Rollers with a vengeance!
In the end it's all irrelevant :-)
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